Kaleena et al v. Jehovah's Witnesses — Court Documents (2012)

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Not a Watch Tower publication

Papers of a civil suit in the United States brought by people who were abused as children by members of Jehovah's Witness congregations: complaints, motions, depositions and rulings, often with the Society's internal letters to elders attached as exhibits.

Court Records: Child Abuse Cases: Court records and official inquiries about how allegations of child sexual abuse were handled in congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses: the exhibits and hearing transcripts of Case Study 29 of Australia's Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse (2015), the 2013 hearing before a committee of the Parliament of Victoria, the papers of civil suits in the United States (including Conti and Lopez) and a judgment of the High Court in London (2015). A handbook for lawyers prepared by former members (2016) summarises these cases from the plaintiffs' side. The court papers are public documents. For a student of the organisation they are among the few sources that show, under oath and with internal letters and instructions attached as evidence, how the written policies for elders — the "two-witness" rule, judicial committees, reporting to authorities, confidentiality — were applied in real cases, and how the Society responded in court and later revised its policies. Petitions and complaints state the plaintiffs' allegations, not findings of a court. They contain distressing accounts of abuse; victims are often named by pseudonyms or initials, as in the originals. The Society's own statements on the subject are in its publications in this archive.

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CASE # CIV20600 (POLK COUNTY) AND 03-2368C/B (SMITH COUNTY) DISTRICT COURT OF THE STATE OF TEXAS FOR THE COUNTY OF SMITH Filed: April 25, 2003

KALEENA S, Individually and as Next Friend of AMANDA M, a minor Plaintiffs

WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC., JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - EAST CONGREGATION, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - WHITE HOUSE CONGREGATION, WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA, INC., ET AL. JAMES HARVEY Defendants.

PLAINTIFFS' ORIGINAL PETITION, Filed 4/25/03 4

ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF CURTIS HALL, 11/18/03 20

DEFENDANTS’ JOINT MOTION FOR PARTIAL SUMMARY JUDGMENT AS TO ALL INDIVIDUAL CLAIMS AND CAUSES OF ACTION OF PLAINTIFF, KALEENA S., Filed 12/18/03 43

Exhibit A, Deposition of KALEENA S., 11/7/03 49

Letter to Lois Rogers, Smith County District Clerk , from Attorney Hartley Hampton,

Filed 12/19/03 54

PLAINTIFFS’ THIRD AMENDED PETITION, Filed 12/19/03 55

MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT, Filed 3/22/04 64

Letter to 114th Judicial District Court, Attn: Tammie, from Dee Julian, 6/17/04 79

ORDER OF GRANTING MOTION TO COMPEL, Filed 6/18/04 80

ORIGINAL CROSS-ACTION FOR INDEMNITY AND/OR CONTRIBUTION,

Filed 6/29/04 81

Letter to Smith County District Clerk from Donald F. Lighty, Filed 6/29/04 87

Letter to Attorneys Hampton and Love & Norris, 6/30/04 89

Letter to Smith County District Clerk, 7/8/04 92

RULE 11 AGREEMENT, Filed 7/8/04 94 CONTENTS

Letter from Dee Julian to Smith County District Clerk, Filed 7/20/04 96

JOINT MOTION TO DISMISS, (Dismissal without prejudice), Filed 7/20/04 98

ORDER, Filed 7/22/04 100 No.

C1U20600

KALEENA S, Individually and as Next Friend of AMANDA M, a minor Plaintiffs

vs.

WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACTS SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC. JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SOUTH CONGREGATION, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - EAST CONGREGATION, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - WHITE HOUSE CONGREGATION, WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA, INC., WATCHTOWER ENTERPRISES, L.L.C., WATCHTOWER FOUNDATION, INC., WATCHTOWER ASSOCIATES, LTD., KINGDOM SUPPORT SERVICES, INC., CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, RELIGIOUS ORDER OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, JAMES HARVEY

IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF

Defendants.

POLK COUNTY, TEXAS

JUDICIAL DISTRICT

Jury Trial Requested

PLAINTIFFS' ORIGINAL PETITION

COME NOW KALEENA S, Individually and As Next Friend of AMANDA M, a Minor, Plaintiffs in the above-numbered and entitled cause, and file this their Original Petition, and as grounds therefore would show unto this Honorable Court and Jury as follows:

I. PARTIES

Plaintiffs KALEENA S and AMANDA M, a minor, are both residents of Texas.

Defendant WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC., a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, with offices at 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, New York 11201-2483, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos and may be served with process through its registered agent Mr. Tad Curtis, 702 Orland Blvd, Austin, Texas 78745-2144.

Defendant JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - SOUTH CONGREGATION may be served with process at its offices at Kingdom Hall Building, 13194 State Hwy.155 South, Tyler, Texas 75703-6549.

Defendant JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - EAST CONGREGATION may be served with process at its offices at Kingdom Hall Building, 8942 Hwy 64 East, Tyler, Texas 75701.

Defendant JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES -WHITE HOUSE CONGREGATION may be served with process at its offices at Kingdom Hall Building, 102 Hagan Road, White House, Texas 75791.

Defendant WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA, INC., a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of Pennsylvania, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. Bus. Corp. Act § 8.10(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 1630 Spring Run Road Extension, Coraopolis, Pennsylvania 15108.

Defendant WATCHTOWER ENTERPRISES, INC., a limited liability company organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. R. Civ. S. art.

1528n, art. 2.08(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, New York 11201.

Defendant WATCHTOWER FOUNDATION, INC., a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. Bus. Corp. Act § 8.10(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, New York 11201.

Defendant WATCHTOWER ASSOCIATES, LTD., a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. Bus. Corp. Act § 8.10(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 147 Holiday Drive, Westbury, New York 11797.

Defendant KINGDOM SUPPORT SERVICES, INC., a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. Bus. Corp. Act § 8.10(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 98 Montague Street, Brooklyn, New York 11201.

Defendant CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. Bus. Corp. Act § 8.10(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 100 Watchtower Drive, Patterson, New York 12563-9204.

Defendant RELIGIOUS ORDER OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES, a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of New York, has conducted business within the State of Texas through its agents and alter egos. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Pursuant to Tex. Bus. Corp. Act § 8.10(B), this Defendant may be served with process by serving the Texas Secretary of State who should mail a copy of the process by registered or certified mail to the Defendant's offices located at 25 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn, New York 11201-2483.

Defendant JAMES HARVEY is a resident of the Polansky Unit of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice in Livingston, Polk County, Texas. Said Defendant has not designated or maintained a registered agent for service of process in Texas. Said Defendant may be served with process by constable at the POLANSKY UNIT of the Texas Department of

COMPLAINT PAGE4

The Defendant entities are collectively referred to herein as the "WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS" because each is the alter ego of each other and operate as a single business enterprise.

11.

JURISDICTION AND VENUE

Plaintiffs have been damaged in an amount exceeding the minimum jurisdictional levels of this court.

Venue is proper in Polk County, Texas because Defendant JAMES HARVEY resides in Polk County, Texas.

III. SUMMARY OF FACTS

A. WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' ORGANIZATION AND CHAIN OF COMMAND

The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization has a hierarchical structure in which the GOVERNING BODY sits at the top of a strict chain of command that extends over each individual and Defendant entity in the organization. These individuals and entities act as agents, servants and alter egos of each other. Authority for any actions by the organization or its members must derive from the GOVERNING BODY, which has absolute authority over every person and all matters in the organization and its worldwide operations. The GOVERNING BODY is a small group of men who operate out of various entities within the hierarchical structure.

All of the Defendants are the agents and servants of each other and are vicariously liable for each other's acts.

The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS are so organized and

controlled and their affairs are so conducted that they are alter egos of each other and operate as a single business enterprise.

B. VICARIOUS LIABILITY OF THE WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS

Through its hierarchical structure, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS assume complete responsibility for the development, protection and discipline of its membership especially the children of members. All male members, whether Elders, Ministerial Servants, Pioneers and/or Publishers, are appointed and empowered by the GOVERNING BODY to carry out this responsibility.

To further their goals, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS authorize male members to develop relationships of trust with women, children and families and to assume the role of counselor and advocate for any problems that might arise, including claims of child abuse. It is the responsibility of the Elders and those higher up in the chain of command, all the way up to the GOVERNING BODY, to decide if abuse has occurred and how it should be handled.

At all material times, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS have prohibited the victim and/or accuser from warning others or speaking about the matter to anyone under penalty of discipline. Victim/accusers are not permitted to report suspected abuse to outside authorities or to other Publishers within the organization, despite secular laws and duties regarding the reporting of sexual abuse. Violation of this policy can lead to severe sanctions.

C. JAMES HARVEY

Beginning in 1990 or before, Defendant JAMES HARVEY was a leader in good standing with the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS through Defendant JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - SOUTH CONGREGATION.

As their agent, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS vested Defendant JAMES HARVEY with supervisory authority and control over children in the congregation.

In 1991, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS learned that Defendant JAMES HARVEY had admittedly used his position of authority to sexually abuse an 8-year-old girl in the Defendant JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - SOUTH CONGREGATION. Despite this admission, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS did not report the abuse to authorities or warn other members of the organization of Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S propensities to use his position of authority to abuse children. Instead, they continued to place him in positions of supervisory authority and control over children.

In 1992, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS transferred Defendant JAMES HARVEY from Defendant JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES - SOUTH CONGREGATION to work as their agent in two other congregations, Defendants JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES-EAST CONGREGATION and JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES- WHITE HOUSE CONGREGATION.

Despite notice of Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S propensities to use his position with the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS to gain access to and abuse young girls, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS presented him to these congregations as a Publisher in good standing where he was placed in leadership roles with supervisory authority and control over children in the organization. Forseeably, this sexual predator used his leadership position with the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS to abuse other children. Two of these children were Plaintiffs, KALEENA S and AMANDA M.

COMPLAINT PAGE 7

In 1996, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS were again notified that

Defendant JAMES HARVEY was using his leadership position of trust and authority in the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization to abuse young girls. Nevertheless, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS did nothing to warn members and their families or to otherwise report the abuse to authorities. Instead, they knowingly concealed this information and continued to allow him unfettered access to his victims by placing him in positions with supervisory authority and control over children.

Beginning in 1995 and continuing through at least 1998, Defendant JAMES HARVEY used his leadership position of trust and authority in the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization to sexually abuse Plaintiff AMANDA M who was approximately 8 years old when the abuse began. Beginning in 1996 and continuing through at least 1998, Defendant JAMES HARVEY used his leadership position of trust and authority in the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization to sexually abuse Plaintiff, KALEENA S.

Not until 1998, after Plaintiff KALEENA S reported the ongoing abuse to the police did the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS take any action against Defendant JAMES HARVEY. Of course such action came too late for Plaintiffs KALEENA S and AMANDA M.

On November 1, 2002, Defendant JAMES HARVEY pled guilty to the sexual abuse of Plaintiff KALEENA S and was sentenced to life imprisonment. The evidence at trial, revealed a number of victims over a twenty-year period.

For at least a decade, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS knew or should have known that Defendant JAMES HARVEY was sexually molesting and physically abusing young

COMPLAINT PAGE 8 girls within the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization.

Nevertheless, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS continued to place him in leadership positions with supervisory authority and control over children, entrusting him with the welfare of numerous young girls in the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' local congregations, whom he sexually molested. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS failed to notify anyone that Defendant JAMES HARVEY was molesting or had sexually molested young girls. They further failed to take appropriate steps to protect these young victims from his abuse. Instead, they knowingly concealed this information from Plaintiffs and others. By their conduct, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS aided, abetted and ratified the abuse.

Defendant JAMES HARVEY used the authority of his leadership position as an agent of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization to sexually abuse Plaintiffs KALEENA S and AMANDA M. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS directly and vicariously caused foreseeable harm to Plaintiff KALEENA S and AMANDA M by, among other things:

a. aiding, abetting and ratifying the abuse of children by Publishers and Elders;

b. blaming, humiliating, sanctioning and/or disciplining victims/accusers of sexual abuse instead of the perpetrators;

c. negligently failing to report such sexual abuse, including the abuse by Defendant JAMES HARVEY, to law enforcement and governmental child welfare agencies and requiring that Publishers not make such report

d. negligently failing to warn Plaintiffs, their families, and others of the risk of Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S abuse after they knew or should have known of Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S propensities to use his position of leadership to engage in acts of sexual abuse; e.

negligently failing to train its Elders, volunteers, appointed overseers and other associated individuals to prevent, identify, investigate, respond to or report child abuse;

f. negligently failing to adopt adequate policies and procedures for the protection of children and other publishers and/or to implement and comply with such procedures that did exist;

g. failing to properly investigate matters brought to the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' attention involving child sexual abuse and/or suspicions of child sexual abuse;

h. negligently allowing Defendant JAMES HARVEY to move between congregations as a Publisher in good standing after the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS knew or should have known of his propensities to use his position of leadership to engage in acts of sexual abuse of children;

i. negligently failing to provide child abuse victims and their families with any assistance in coping with the trauma of abuse and preventing Plaintiffs and their families from reporting the abuse to outside authorities and obtaining outside help to deal with the trauma of abuse.

j. concealing from Plaintiffs and their families that the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS had information that Defendant JAMES HARVEY was abusing young children;

k. negligently failing to undertake a sexual offender evaluation, provide sexual offender treatment and/or obtain psychiatric evaluation and treatment of Defendant JAMES HARVEY after they knew or should have known of his propensities to use his position of leadership to engage in acts of sexual abuse;

negligently failing to properly supervise Defendant JAMES HARVEY as a leader in the organization or to monitor his activities after they knew or should have known of his propensities to use his agency position of leadership to engage in acts of sexual abuse.

IV. CAUSES OF ACTION

COUNT I SEXUAL BATTERY AND RESPONDEAT SUPERIOR

For a number of years, beginning in about 1995, as an agent and alter ego of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, Defendant JAMES HARVEY repeatedly committed sexual battery upon the persons of the Plaintiffs, KALEENA S and AMANDA M in the State of Texas. Each of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS was in the chain of command and acted pursuant to the authority granted to them as agents and the alter ego of the GOVERNING BODY and each other, utilizing such leadership and authority to carry out and/or aid, abet and ratify the sexual abuse of Plaintiffs. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS are therefore liable for the sexual battery of Plaintiffs under the legal theory of respondeat superior.

COUNT II COMMON-LAW NEGLIGENCE

At all material times, WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS assumed a duty to protect Plaintiffs from sexual predators within the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS further knew or should have known that Plaintiffs were at risk of foreseeable harm by Defendant JAMES HARVEY, but failed to act to protect them from said harm. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS breached their duty to the great harm of Plaintiffs.

As a direct result of the negligent conduct of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, Plaintiffs have suffered the injuries and damages described herein.

COUNT III NEGLIGENT HIRING, RETENTION AND SUPERVISION

At all material times, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS knew or should have known of Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S propensities to use his position as a leader in the Watchtower organization to engage in acts of sexual abuse. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS failed to adequately investigate, discipline, evaluate, treat, supervise and otherwise monitor the conduct of Defendant JAMES HARVEY who was their agent and under their control. They therefore negligently hired, retained and supervised Defendant JAMES HARVEY in the organization at a time when they knew or should have known of his propensities to use his position of leadership to engage in acts of sexual abuse against Plaintiffs and other young children. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS also negligently hired, retained and supervised the Elders of the local congregations with respect to the investigation, reporting and care of victims of child abuse within their organization. As a result, Plaintiffs have suffered grave harm.

COUNT IV GROSS NEGLIGENCE

The behavior of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS set forth above demonstrated a conscious indifference to the safety and welfare of Plaintiffs entitling Plaintiffs to punitive damages, including attorneys' fees.

As a direct result of the grossly negligent conduct of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, Plaintiffs have suffered the injuries and damages described herein.

The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS placed themselves in a position of trust and confidence with Plaintiffs. The relationship between Plaintiffs and the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' organization was fiduciary in nature and imposed on the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS a duty to act in Plaintiffs' best interest.

Because of this special relationship between the Plaintiffs and the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, Plaintiffs and their families placed their trust and confidence in the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS that they would not harm Plaintiffs or fail to warn Plaintiffs of potential harm. Further, Plaintiffs and their families placed their trust and confidence in the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS that they would protect Plaintiffs from harm.

The above acts and/or omissions by the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, either independently or in conjunction with each other constitutes a breach of the fiduciary duty owed to Plaintiffs by WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS.

As a direct result of the conduct of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, Plaintiffs have suffered the injuries and damages described herein.

COUNT VI FRAUD AND FRAUDULENT CONCEALMENT

After receiving reports that Defendant JAMES HARVEY was abusing young girls, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS, with the intent to keep the information from Plaintiffs, other victims similarly situated, and the community-at-large, willfully concealed that information. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS materially misrepresented to Plaintiffs and their families that Defendant JAMES HARVEY was a leader in good standing with authority to

supervise, control and instruct Plaintiffs in spiritual, ethical and moral matters and that he was to be obeyed. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS further materially misrepresented that they would act in Plaintiffs' best interest. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS failed to disclose that they knew of Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S propensities to use his leadership position to sexually abuse Plaintiffs and others and that they were doing nothing to protect them. Plaintiffs did not know the falsity of the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS' representations, were entitled to rely upon them, and did in fact rely upon them, to their serious injury and harm.

COUNT VII RATIFICATION

Upon learning that its agent, Defendant JAMES HARVEY had sexually abused young children in the organization, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS failed to take sufficient steps to discipline or hold Defendant JAMES HARVEY accountable for his actions. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS transferred Defendant JAMES HARVEY to the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES EAST and WHITE HOUSE CONGREGATIONS as a leader in good standing with the organization, providing no warning to its members that they were entrusting them to the care of a sexual predator. Up until sometime in 1998, The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS continued to present HARVEY as a leader in good standing, despite reports of additional abuse. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS thereby ratified Defendant JAMES HARVEY'S conduct in sexually abusing Plaintiffs and others. The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS are thus liable in damages to Plaintiffs.

COUNT VIII ALTER EGO AND SINGLE BUSINESS ENTERPRISE

The WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS are organized and controlled and their affairs are so conducted that they are in fact mere instrumentalities and alter egos for each other and liable for each other's acts. Alternatively, the WATCHTOWER DEFENDANTS were all engaged, at all material times, in a single business enterprise and are liable for each other's acts.

V. DAMAGES

As a result of Defendants' acts, Plaintiffs have incurred and will continue to incur costs for medical expenses, counseling and psychological treatment, have lost earning capacity and have suffered and will continue to suffer extreme, permanent emotional distress and psychological harm with accompanying physical manifestations, embarrassment, loss of self-esteem, disgrace, humiliation, loss of enjoyment of life, and economic and non-economic damages of $8,000,000.00

VI. JURY DEMAND

Plaintiffs request a trial by jury and have submitted herewith the appropriate jury fee.

VII.

PRAYER

WHEREFORE, Plaintiffs demand judgment against Defendants individually, jointly and severally in an amount for economic, non-economic, and punitive damages, including attorneys' fees, plus costs, disbursements, and whatever additional relief the court deems just and equitable.

FIBICH, HAMPTON, LEEBRON & GARTH, L.L.P.

Tommy Fibich, Esq.

Hartley Hampton, Esq.

Mike Leebron, Esq.

1401 McKinney, Suite 1800

Five Houston Center

Houston, Texas 77010

(713) 751-0025-Telephone

(713) 751-0030-Telecopy

LOVE & NORRIS

Gregory S. Love

Kimberlee D. Norris

314 Main Street, Suite 300

Fort Worth, Texas 76102-7423

(817) 335-2800-Telephone

(817) 335-2912-Telecopy

ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF

CURTIS HAIL

NOVEMBER 18,2003

ORAL AND VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF CURTIS HAIL, produced as a witness at the instance of the PLAINTIFFS, and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on November 18, 2003, from 10:59 a.m. to 4:18 p.m., before Julie C. Brandt, CSR in and for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand, at the Holiday Inn Select, 5701 S. Broadway, Tyler, Texas, pursuant to the Texas Rules of Civil Procedure.

Page 6

Page 8

EXAMINATION

Q. More of an architect?

BY MR. HAMPTON:

A. No, order taker.

Q. Tell us your full name, please, sir.

Q. Oh, order taker.

A. Curtis Hail. Curtis Davis Hail.

A. I was a salesman. I couldn't sell very good. But I worked for a packing company and for a drug company selling sundries and drugs and stuff.

Q. Curtis Davis Hail. Mr. Hail, my name is Hartley Hampton. We met about five minutes ago.

Q. Okay. So what was the name of the packing company?

A. Yes.

A. Decker Packing.

Q. Have you ever had your deposition taken before?

Q. Decker Packing?

A. This is it. First one.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. First and last, I hope.

Q. During what years did you work for them?

A. A little nervous.

A. About '47 to early '50's.

Q. Well, don't be. I'm going to -- I'm going to do my best to make my questions clear. And all I ask in return is that you make sure that you understand my question before you answer.

Q. Okay.

A. Right.

A. And then I worked for R & R Distributing Company after that until up into the '60s.

Q. I'm not going to try to be tricky. I'm not going to try to do any of the things that you see lawyers do on television. If I ask you any question that you feel is unfair or if I mischaracterize any facts or anything like that, I want you to stop me, okay, and say, I can't answer that question?

Q. Okay.

A. All right.

A. And then I worked for R & R Distributing Company after that until up into the '60s.

Q. For whatever reason.

Q. Okay.

This isn't a marathon or an endurance contest. So if you need a break, just let me know and I'll probably be

A. In the '60s then, as one of the Jehovah Witnesses, I quit working secular work and went into what we call pioneering. And I pioneered then for 22 years. I worked part-time different jobs.

A. All right.

Q. All right. Let me make sure I've kind of got the years.

Q. For whatever reason.

A. Uh-huh.

This isn't a marathon or an endurance contest. So if you need a break, just let me know and I'll probably be

Q. Sort of plus or minus here.

A. Uh-huh.

Page 7

Page 9

doing the same.

Q. When did you quit doing secular work?

A. All right.

A. '60. 1960.

Q. I would like to get some background information from you, if I could, please, sir.

Q. 1960. Okay. And then you were a pioneer until 1982?

A. Sure.

A. Around that, yes. Go ahead. That's all right.

Q. How long have you lived in this area?

Q. I didn't mean to cut you off. I want to hear your testimony, not my talking.

A. I lived here since '75.

A. Well, what's your question?

Q. Since '75.

Q. You were a pioneer for 22 years.

A. Uh-huh.

A. Right. Uh-huh.

Q. Here in Tyler?

Q. Which would get us up to 1982?

A. Right.

A. Yes.

Q. All right, sir. What is your home address?

Q. And during that period of time you did a little work?

A. 3810 Pine Manor, two words, zip code 75701.

A. Yes.

Q. And have you lived at that address for -- since '75?

Q. And during that period of time you did a little work?

A. No, since '78.

A. Part-time work. One of our members was a electrician, and I didn't do any electric work. I dug trenches for conduit and everything. He told me when I went to work for there that -- he was wondering when you talk about electrical work, because all I did most of the time there was swing a pick and a shovel.

A. Well, I was in the Army during World War II for five years. I was discharged in '45.

Q. Okay. Are you employed or retired?

A. Retired.

Q. Retired. Tell me what jobs you held during your life.

A. Well, I was in the Army during World War II for five years. I was discharged in '45.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Right. Right. What did you do starting in 1982?

A. I worked for -- one of the brothers had a rug doctor, and I worked -- I just worked part-time for them. My mother had come to live with us, and my father-in-law both were elderly.

1 Q.

Okay. Born in Crockett.

2 A. And left there when I was about 2 and moved to Galveston.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And I spent up until 16 -- we moved to Houston when I was a junior. This would be a junior in high school. And I was there when I went in the Army. And I stayed -- come home and stayed there until '68.

9 Q. Okay. Where did you live between '68 and '78?

10 A. All right. '68 we moved to Madison County,

11 Madisonville, Texas.

12 Q. Right.

13 A. And then about a year we moved to Huntsville and stayed there until I moved up here in '75.

15 Q. So about '69 you moved to Huntsville?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. You lived in Houston then when you joined the Jehovah's Witnesses or--

19 A. Oh, yeah, yeah.

20 Q. How many congregations did you belong to in Houston?

21 A. One.

22 Q. What was the name of it?

23 A. Heights.

24 Q. Okay. It was -- that area was flooded pretty bad yesterday.

1 A. Heights was?

2 Q. Uh-huh. I drove through it going --

3 A. Well, I was right on the -- I lived in Timbergrove there, and I was right on the bayou that come in there. I probably would have got it.

4 Q. You would have been real wet.

5 A. Yeah.

6 Q. Now did you belong to a congregation when you moved to Madison County?

7 A. Yes. We were assigned to the Huntsville congregation.

8 Q. Okay. And did you stay in the Huntsville congregation when you moved to Huntsville?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now when you moved to Tyler in '78 -- '75 --

11 A. '5.

12 Q. -- '75, what congregation did you -- did you join?

13 A. South.

14 Q. Have you -- how long were you a member of the South congregation?

15 A. I left there. Circuit overseer asked another elder and I to go to the North congregation, and it was around '79.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I was there in the North about two years.

1 Q. So that gets us to about '81.

2 A. Then I moved to the East.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. And I've been at East ever since.

5 Q. Okay. Were you baptized in 1956?

6 A. In '57.

7 Q. '57. Take me through the -- the positions that you've held in Jehovah's Witnesses, and we can start with today and go backwards if you want, if that would be easier for you.

A. Well, we could start at the beginning, either way.

Q. All right. Let's start at the beginning then.

A. At the Heights congregation, we had the -- didn't have the elder arrangement at that time. We had the congregation servant assistant in Bible study servant. And that was the first position I had. After I pioneered there in '60, then I was appointed as a Bible study servant there in the Heights congregation.

Q. And that was in '60?

A. Yes.

Q. And it was a Bible study servant?

A. Servant, right.

Q. And how long did you hold that position?

A. Until I left there in about '68.

Q. And that's when you moved to the Huntsville congregation?

A. Right. Uh-huh.

Q. And what positions did you hold there?

A. After I was there -- when I moved to -- I moved to Madisonville. Then when I moved to Huntsville, they had had a special pioneer there, and they transferred him over to Bryan, and so they appointed me then as a congregation servant there.

Q. So you became -- when you moved to the Huntsville congregation in '68, you became a congregation servant?

A. A year later after I moved there.

Q. Okay.

A. When I moved back -- moved to Huntsville, then I became where the congregation was located, and then I became the congregation servant there.

Q. Were you a -- what did you -- what position did you hold when you moved to -- up to the -- up to Madison County?

A. Well, I wasn't a servant there. When you leave, that doesn't go with you.

Q. Okay. Now under the old arrangement, the congregation servant--

A. Servant.

Q. -- was the highest position --

A. Right.

Q. -- in the congregation?

A. Right. That's correct.

Q. How long were you a congregation servant in the 10 A.

I don't know how many circuits in were there. Some of them take in -- well, they wouldn't take in all of Texas.

12 There's probably about three or four districts in Texas, and it goes into Oklahoma, maybe Arkansas and Louisiana some.

14 Q. Okay. Have you ever had contact with the district overseers?

16 A. Oh, yes, quite a few of them.

17 Q. Do you know who the district overseer is right now for this--

19 A. O'Brien.

20 Q. -- this area?

21 How long has he been district overseer?

22 A. I don't know. I've never met him. This is the first time he'll serve us.

24 Q. This is the first time you've been in his district?

25 A. Uh-huh.

1 Q. How long have you been in his district?

2 A. In this one?

3 Q. Yes, sir.

4 A. Since I moved here.

5 Q. How long have you been in O'Brien's district?

6 A. Oh. He just was assigned in September.

7 Q. Okay. Who was district overseer before him?

8 A. I can't recall.

9 Q. Okay. Did you know a fellow named James Nash?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was he an elder?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did he serve with you?

14 A. Yes. He was in the South when I moved into the South congregation.

16 Q. How well did you know him?

17 A. Very -- pretty good.

18 Q. Were y'all close?

19 A. Fairly close, yes.

20 Q. Now he has passed away?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When did he die?

23 A. Oh, he died -- that's been 10 or 12 years ago.

24 Q. And y'all served together as elders in South?

25 A. Right.

Q. Did he ever hold any position other than elder? In other words, did he ever become a circuit overseer?

A. No.

Q. What I would like to do now, Mr. Hail, is I'd like to understand or get you to educate me on -- I understand that there are congregations, and I understand that there's a circuit over the congregation that has about 20 or so congregations.

A. Uh-huh.

Q. And then there's districts.

A. Right.

Q. Can you educate me on how Jehovah's Witnesses are

13 organized above that, above that level?

14 A. Well, you have the branch. We have a branch.

15 Q. Okay. And --

16 A. United States branch after that.

17 Q. So the entire United States would be one branch?

18 A. Right. The 48 states. Alaska and Hawaii are not included in the branch area.

20 Q. Okay. And is there an entity that--what do you call the U. S. branch? Is that what you call it?

22 A. Yeah, uh-huh. You've got a branch overseer.

23 Q. Okay. Who is the branch overseer?

24 A. I have no idea.

25 Q. Is there an entity over the U. S. branch?

Page 25

3 Q. The governing body sits at the very top of the organization?

4 A. It's the top--top of the organization.

5 Q. Now are there other branches? You told me that

7 Alaska and Hawaii are in a different branch.

8 A. Right.

9 Q. How many branches are there?

10 A.I don't know.

11 Q.Are there branches in different countries?

12 A. Yes. All over the entire earth we have branches.

13 Q.And the governing body -- so if you're going to draw

14 an organizational chart, you have a governing body at the top.

15 A. Uh-huh.

16 Q. True?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And then you'd have a line for a bunch of different branches.

19 A. Right.

21 Q. And -

22 A. You have a zone, too. They're divided into zones,

23 too, where they have a zone overseer, but I don't know any of those.

25 Q. Is the zone overseer below the branch overseer?

5 A. And they work -- they come and visit us, the district and circuit overseers,and they give us guidelines and direction.

20 Q. The elders are above the ministerial servants?

1 ones that oversee the spiritual aspects of the whole

11 A. About--about ten years.

13 A. Yes.Around in there.And--

12 Q. Beginning in about '93?

16 have -- it's been about a year and a half that I haven't

Q. And you were presiding overseer--I'm trying to figure out the time period.

Q. When you become a lawyer, you have to take the bar exam and there's a pass rate for the bar. Fortunately for me it's real high. How high is the pass rate for baptism, if you understand what I'm trying to ask you?

A. Well, they would have to have a basic understanding of the Bible.

Q. Okay.

A. And they don't know everything, as we're always learning, but they're coming in primarily with the primary knowledge of what -- what they are required to do in order to stay -- to please Jehovah, be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Q. Is it typical that somebody is approved to be baptized? Does that happen more often than not, or is it -- A. Yes. Yes.

Q. -- typical --

Just in rough percentages, how often is it that you would tell somebody that they need to go back and study some more?

A. It would be a small percentage. It wouldn't be 10 percent.

Q. Okay.

A. It would be a lot less than that.

Q. Now the three elders would approve the individual to be baptized.

A. Uh-huh.

Page 39

Q. What happens next?

A. Of course, they are baptized. We have two that will be baptized that come to circuit assembly, and that's when they -- generally they're -- at circuit assemblies we have facilities for baptisms and at district assemblies.

Q. So they're baptized at circuit and district assemblies?

A. As a rule, but you can be baptized locally here.

Q. How do you decide what congregation you're going to belong to? Is that something the individual can decide -- A. Yes.

Q. -- on his own -- his or her own?

A. Uh-huh. We have people -- we have certain areas -- like in Tyler, it's divided among the four congregations here, and that area is where they witness, where we go from door to door. That's our assigned area, territory. And nine out of ten, or more than that, the people we contact are in there, so they'll be in there. Now there's some that move into our territory that have been going to another one, and they want to stay with that one. That's -- that's up to them.

Q. Okay. The four congregations in Tyler are -- A. The North and the Lake Park and the East and the South.

Q. Okay. Whitehouse is a separate --

A. Right.

15 A.

They watch him, how he carries out his duties as a ministerial servant. And then the elders begin working with him, making shepherding calls or visiting publishers, sick or needing help or whatever. And the very important part is that he really is desirous of that, he's reaching out, so to speak, for that work, because it's the male in the congregations would his proper place to be, working up to be an elder.

22 Q. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

23 A. Well, an individual who is applying the Bible in his life would be desirous of that work, of helping others.

25 Q. Okay. So you would expect a male in the

1 congregation to be -- to aspire to be an elder?

A. That's correct.

Q. And to devote his energies to becoming an elder?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. How long is a ministerial servant -- I assume that a ministerial servant would have to be tested for a period of some years --

A. Some years, right.

Q. -- before he would be recommended?

A. Right.

Q. Do the elders recommend to the circuit overseer that someone become an elder?

A. Right.

Q. And then the circuit overseer mails the recommendation to Bethel?

A. Right.

Q. Is that right?

A. That's correct.

Q. And the decision is made in Bethel about whether or not the individual is appointed or not?

A. That's right.

Q. Okay. Now I -- I take it that the role of elder in a congregation is a very important and -- well, very important position. I can't think of another word. It's very important, though, is it not?

Page 48

5 Q. About 30 years. Tell me, in your own words, how you

6 view the responsibilities of an elder.

9 spiritual leader in the congregation and to help the publishers

10 to appreciate and apply the Bible in their lives, helping --

11 and helping those who are having problems, various -- you know,

13 overcome their problems that they might have. But over all,

14 you're interested in the spirituality of every member in the

15 congregation. That's your main function. And to keep the

21 My sense is that words really don't do justice to the

Page 49

24 A. It's--it's a--it's a heavy responsibility you

25 don't take lightly.

1 Q. I have heard the term shepherd the flock used.

3 Q. I've heard that term used in the context of what elders do.

1 schools?

A. Yes, all of them are -- are to be there barring sickness or anything.

Q. Okay. How often are Kingdom Ministry schools held?

A. There's no certain schedule on it. Whenever they think that they need to have one, they have one.

Q. Over the past 20 years, how many times have you gone to Kingdom Ministry schools?

A. I've gone to all of them, but I couldn't say.

Probably half a dozen or more.

Q. Okay. So they don't have them every year?

A. Oh, no. Huh-uh.

Q. Every two or three years?

A. Possibly.

Q. But not at a regular schedule?

A. It's not a regular scheduled meeting.

Q. Where are they held?

A. As of late, they've been up in Denton, Texas. We have an assembly hall there. The area here goes up -- goes up there.

Q. Well, that was going to be my next question. Do all the elders from all over the country come to the same meeting, or are they divided up into regions?

A. Regions.

Q. Would all the elders from, say, the -- this circuit

1 composition of a lot of buildings up there, various work from printing and all.

Q. Now I got you. Bethel is a place?

A. Right.

Q. Okay. Thank you. And like I said, I'm here to learn.

A. Right.

Q. So if I -- if I start saying things wrong, like I just did, please set me straight.

A. Well, we get direction from the governing body.

Q. Okay. And are you expected to obey that direction?

A. Yes.

Q. So that's a responsibility that elders have--

A. Right.

Q. -- to obey the governing body?

A. (Witness nods head.)

Q. True?

A. True.

Q. Does instruction come from the governing body through these Kingdom Ministry schools?

A. Yes.

Q. Do members of the governing body attend the Kingdom Ministry schools?

A. Possibly some of them. Not all of them, because there's quite a few schools.

1 go to the same meeting?

A. They're assigned by circuits.

Q. Okay. What are the responsibilities of the elders to Bethel?

A. To Bethel?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. I don't know about any responsibilities to Bethel.

Q. Well, do the -- are the elders expected to do what Bethel tells them to do under certain circumstances?

MR. LIGHTY: Object to form.

Q. Let me rephrase it. That was a bad question. Are elders -- do elders ever receive instructions from Bethel?

A. We receive instruction from the branch -- United States branch, which comes out of Bethel, but the -- we get direction from them.

MR. LIGHTY: I was objecting to form. I didn't want to interrupt you. I'm sorry.

Q. So you -- you as -- you elders receive instruction from the U. S. branch, but that comes out of Bethel?

MR. LIGHTY: Object to form.

Q. Would that be true? And if that's not true, set me straight. I'm here to learn.

A. Well, the term Bethel, we don't use it as -- in the way you're using it there as being where the authority is.

It's located in there, but Bethel is just -- takes in the whole

1 Q. Who teaches the Kingdom Ministry schools?

A. Different circuit and district overseers and those from the headquarters in New York for the branch.

Q. And do those individuals have the authority to carry messages from the governing body?

A. Yes.

Q. Carry instructions?

A. Uh-huh. Yes.

Q. Now you've said different circuit overseers and different district overseers teach the Kingdom Ministry schools, and then you added people from New York.

A. Well, we have -- at those meetings they have selected different -- some circuits servants to give talks and instruction and district overseers, and some of them from the headquarters up there do it. It's a variety.

Q. Okay.

A. They get a variety of brothers in there to do it.

Q. Are there folks from the headquarters who have jobs other than being a circuit or district overseer?

A. Yes.

Q. And what would some -- give me some examples of some of those jobs.

A. Well, they would oversee -- I don't know exactly what -- what they would entail, but they would have the same thing as a district or circuit overseer in their capacity as a

5 Q.

Okay. The books that you told me about, are the books published by the district? And by that, I mean the Kingdom Ministry school book and the organization--

8 A. Yes, those are all by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, would be the legal corporation that would oversee all that.

20 Q. Do elders have the freedom at the local level to 21 disregard any of the instructions that they get from the 22 governing body?

24 Q. I want to ask some more questions about how you receive instructions from the governing body.And we've talked

1 year? Do you do it every other year?

A. No.

Q. Over 30 --

A. I called -- I called a lot with James Harvey.

Q. Over a 30-year period, how many -- how many times do you think you've called them, just your best judgment?

A. It wouldn't be over -- it wouldn't be ten.

Q. Okay. How many of those ten dealt with James Harvey?

A. Most of them.

Q. When you call -- let's say that -- that an issue comes up here in Tyler, here at your congregation, and you need to deal with that issue. When you call Bethel, who do you call?

A. We call the department up there that handles our particular area and talk to the brother up there.

Q. Okay. How are the departments divided up?

A. Well, they're divided up differently. I don't know what the division is, but --

Q. Are they divided --

A. Texas -- Texas has a Texas branch that way.

Q. I got you. So you would call whatever department has Tyler, Texas?

A. Texas branch, yeah.

Q. And when somebody answers the phone, do you learn

1 about books. We've talked about letters. We've talked about Kingdom Ministry school. Do you ever get instructions any other way?

A. Well, at the circuit assemblies we get it. I don't know if you mentioned that. We met with the district overseer and circuit overseer.

Q. Okay.

A. And he has a meeting with just elders, and he goes over points that he wants to cover with the elders.

Q. And are those points -- do those points represent instructions from the governing body?

A. That's correct.

Q. And, again, you're expected to obey those instructions?

A. That's correct.

Q. And you don't have the discretion to disobey it?

A. That's right.

Q. Any other way that instructions from the governing body come to elders?

A. No.

Q. Do you ever call headquarters for advice?

A. Yes, I've called them, uh-huh.

Q. On few or many occasions?

A. Oh, it's not been a whole lot, but--

Q. Well, in 30 years -- I mean, do you do it every

1 that person's name?

2 A. I don't -- yes. Yes.

3 Q. Their full name?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How do you -- tell me how you would go about getting ahold of somebody at headquarters? You would call--

7 A. We have a phone number there to that particular -- to Bethel, which has all that in there. And then I ask for --

9 for the Texas branch, and they connect me with them.

10 Q. Okay. And somebody answers the phone?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And do they identify themselves?

13 A. Well, he identifies -- he asks me who I am and what I want. Then we get into a discussion of what the reason for the call.

16 Q. And then are you routed to somebody who specializes in that area, or does --

18 A. Well, that's what I was referring to there. We get operators. Generally it's a sister, and then she just connects us right with the department.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. No tapes.

23 Q. This isn't like Watergate?

24 A. No tapes. No, you don't punch 1 or punch 2. You get a person when you call there.

1 person?

2 A. Twice.

3 Q. Man or woman?

4 A. Man.

5 Q. Do you remember his name?

6 MR. LIGHTY: I believe that's privileged.

7 MR. HAMPTON: Oh, I don't think the name is privileged.

9 MR. LIGHTY: Membership in a delegation not involved in this lawsuit, I think it's privileged.

11 MR. HAMPTON: I'm sorry. I didn't hear what you said.

13 MR. LIGHTY: You're asking for membership in an organization that's not involved in this lawsuit.

15 MR. HAMPTON: Well, I'm asking for the name of the person he talked to, is all I'm asking for. I'm asking for the name of the person in the legal department at Bethel that he talked to when he called about James Harvey.

19 MR. LIGHTY: I understand. I think that's privileged. I'm saying I'm going to instruct him not to answer that.

22 MR. HAMPTON: Okay. Certify that question, please.

Q. Okay. Now your lawyer has instructed you not to answer about who the person is. So I don't want you to tell me

that. I want you to follow your lawyer's advice, but I'm going to ask you a different question. Do you know that person's name?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. So it would be possible for you to answer the question?

A. Yeah, I know his name.

Q. Okay. Is he a lawyer?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because he told me he was.

Q. He told you he was a lawyer?

A. Uh-huh. Yes.

Q. The other time you called, the third time you called, when you didn't talk to the same person, do you know the name of that person?

A. Yes.

Q. Man or woman?

A. Man.

Q. Is he a lawyer?

A. No.

Q. How do you know that?

A. He said he wasn't.

Q. Who did you call first, the lawyer or the nonlawyer?

A. I called -- called the legal department. I didn't

1 call a specific individual, but I got --

2 Q. Here's what I'm asking. You had three phone calls.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Two of them are with a lawyer. One of them was with a nonlawyer. Let's number them one, two and three. Which one of those phone calls was with the nonlawyer?

7 A. I think it was the second.

8 Q. Okay. If I ask you the name of the nonlawyer, your lawyer, I'm sure, would instruct you not to answer. And you wouldn't answer, would you?

11 A. No.

12 MR. HAMPTON: Okay. Let's certify that question.

14 MR. LIGHTY: Okay. When you finish this subject, we've been going about an hour and a half.

16 MR. HAMPTON: Yeah, I wouldn't mind grabbing a quick bite. I've got a cramp in my leg here.

18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record at 12:22.

19 (A break was taken from 12:22 to 1:20.)

20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record at 1:20.

22 MR. LIGHTY: This is Don Lighty, counsel for several of the defendants in this case. During my lunch break, I had the opportunity to rethink some of my objections, and I'm going to withdraw my objections as to the name of the

individuals that Mr. Hail spoke to in the legal department.

Also, I will give counsel some suggestions.

Mr. Hail spoke with the legal department in really two sets of time periods. The set that he was talking about when I expressed my objections was after this lawsuit was filed and was discussions with counsel and a noncounsel member in legal's office after the lawsuit was filed. There is also a time period concerning James Harvey's disfellowship that he spoke with legal counsel. And that's the two sets. You can then --

MR. HAMPTON: Okay.

MR. LIGHTY: -- ask him --

MR. HAMPTON: Thank you.

MR. LIGHTY: -- those individuals's names.

MR. HAMPTON: Thank you.

Q. Mr. Hail, I don't want to know anything that you talked to legal department about after the lawsuit was filed.

But I'd like to ask you some questions about the conversations you had during the Harvey disfellowshipping period. All right, sir?

A. All right.

Q. This was the second time Harvey was disfellowshipped. Is that correct?

A. That's correct.

Q. And it was approximately -- approximately 2000?

A. Around that time, uh-huh.

1 Q. Okay. Can you tell me when you met them?

2 A. Oh, about a month ago.

3 Q. Okay.

4 MR. LIGHTY: I think he means by the Harvey matter, the lawsuit.

6 MR. HAMPTON: Yeah.

7 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

8 Q. But you've met Marino and Bell?

9 A. Not personally, no. I've talked to them on the phone.

11 Q. Okay. My question was: Have you ever met -- the folks at--

13 MR. LIGHTY: It's two sets.

14 MR. HAMPTON: I see what I did.

15 Q. You've never met Mr. Marino face to face?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And you've never met Mr. Bell face to face?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You -- before lunch, you mentioned the meetings that you had with circuit overseers from time to time. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes. They meet with us every time they serve us.

23 Q. Okay. Do they give you anything in writing when they meet with you?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Are members of the congregation taught to view the role of the elders as they would the role of a shepherd?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are they taught that -- to ask elders for advice?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Are they taught to trust elders?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Have confidence in them?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Are they taught to obey the elders?

11 A. We don't -- as Peter said, We don't lord it over them. We're not the boss, but we -- we show them what the Bible shows. Whether they follow that is strictly up to them.

14 Q. But they're expected to?

15 A. Well, we give them counsel, and we expect them to follow the counsel, but it's still their choice whether they do it or not.

18 Q. Just like it's the choice whether to run out in front of a car or not?

20 A. Right. Uh-huh.

21 Q. I'm not talking about that kind of choice. I'm talking about within the organization -- let's back up a little bit.. We talked before lunch about the commitment that somebody makes when they're baptized.

25 A. Right.

MR. LIGHTY: Object to form.

A. The spiritual problems is what they come to them for. And some talk about other problems to elders, but basically we're there for the spiritual aspect of it.

Q. Well, I appreciate that. And that's -- I understand.

A. That's the primary reason.

Q. I'm trying to go -- I'm trying to ask you--

A. Okay.

Q. -- a little differently, though, Mr. Hail.

If someone has a need -- I'm not going to try to define the need. If someone has a need, if someone has a problem, are they supposed to turn to somebody out -- to somebody in the world for help, or are they supposed to go to the elder?

MR. LIGHTY: Object to form.

A. That would depend on what their problem was.

Q. Okay. Give me some examples of problems --

A. Okay.

Q. -- that you should go to the world for?

A. We have a sister that her husband divorced her or he's left her or whatever and she is in bad need of help. So she can go to the secular -- the authority that they have set up to help people there on their own, but we do help -- help those who have problems like that, but she doesn't necessarily

A. That's right.

Q. And are children taught at an early age to place their trust and their confidence in the elders?

A. That's correct.

Q. Are there a lot of children in the Witnesses?

A. Quite a few.

Q. I have -- I have heard -- I've read about the responsibility of the elders to -- I think to use a word -- a phrase you used before lunch, to keep the congregation clean.

A. Right.

Q. I've heard that -- I've heard it said that elders have the responsibility to make sure that nothing brings reproach to Jehovah's name. Did I say that right?

A. Yes. Yes.

Q. What does that mean? Explain to me what that responsibility means.

A. By violating one of the Bible laws or principles.

And that shows disrespect for Jehovah, and that brings reproach upon his name when one of Jehovah's Witnesses does that, such as Harvey.

Q. Do elders sometimes have to discipline members of the congregation for doing something that brings reproach to Jehovah's name?

A. That's correct.

O. And is there a system set up for doing that?

A. There's a judicial system set up to correct anybody that violates a Bible law.

Q. And was that system set up by the Society?

A. Well, it's based on the Bible. The Bible shows us--

Q. Okay.

A. -- how to set that up, but the Society gives us direction on it.

Q. The procedure that's in place was established by the Society?

A. That's correct.

Q. And is it part of the elders's responsibility to the governing body and to the Society to follow that procedure?

A. I lost you on that question. Repeat it, please.

Q. It was a bad question.

The elders are expected to follow the procedure as handed down from the Society?

A. Correct.

Q. They don't have the discretion to change the procedure?

A. No. The procedure's in place.

Q. You can't decide tomorrow, for example, that you're going to change some aspect of that procedure?

A. No.

Q. And this discipline -- disciplinary system that

A. Well, when a case of wrongdoing is brought to the attention of the elders, the presiding overseer, if it's brought to the attention, the body of elders will appoint two elders to investigate to see if there is any substance to the accusation. And if there is, then they come back and the body of elders appoints a judicial committee of three with one as being the chairman of it. And then they call the individual in.

Now these two elders have previously -- go back a little -- have talked to the individual who the accusation was made against, and they find if there's substance to it, then they contact the presiding overseer, and he calls a meeting of the body of elders. And the body of elders then appoints three brothers as a judicial committee to hear it.

MR. HAMPTON: Okay. Let's change the tape.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: End of Tape 1, 1:51.

2 (A break was taken from 1:51 to 1:57.)

3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're back on the record,

November 18, 2003. The time is 1:57 beginning Tape No. 2,

continuing with the deposition of Curtis Hall.

Q. Mr. Hall, you were telling me about the procedure

for the disciplinary system within the Jehovah's Witnesses.

You've gone -- as an elder for 30 years, you've been involved

in this many times, I'm sure.

A. Yes.

Q. You're well familiar with the procedure?

…

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Kaleena et al v. Jehovah's Witnesses — Court Documents (2012)